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    SYKES' TAKE ON - JUSTICE

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    Sykes

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    SYKES' TAKE ON - JUSTICE

    Post  Sykes on Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:11 pm

    A few months ago I was directed to a forum calling itself The UK Justice Forum  which, at first glance, seemed of great interest.  Started by a man who was himself victim of such an injustice, it looked like a great place to browse and, if I felt like it, join and partake of the discussions. However, the addition of a section devoted to the Madeleine McCann case soon changed my perspective and also my desire to be a part of this forum.  It did not take long for the rabid McCann haters to get their feet under the table, led by some well-known names from other forums.  One of them posts his vitriol on Amazon, one gets drunk, posts up insults and swears away like a navvy on a Tyneside barge; there is also one who admitted on another forum that she had defaced posters of Madeleine which were displayed around the town from which the little girl disappeared - the list goes on and on.   And there is a moderator who deleted or alters any posts he does not like because they point out the totally obvious discrepancies in the arguments put up by these people.   There are silly discussions like phone pings - how many, from where and what do they mean.   Then we have thread after thread on the dogs, the shutters etc.  We have accusations that the pro-MCann posters threaten people but no proof provided, whereas everyone has seen the screenshots of a poster on an anti-MCann forum wanting to shoot Kate McCann as she was running in the Marathon ("a joke,nothing more", asserted the admin of the facebook this appeared on), threats to bomb the McCanns' house, beat up Kate, take away the twins and so on.  I won't bore you with all the other dross that is posted on that section, but I will say the following:  UK Justice forum is a good one, well moderated (on the whole) but it is going downhill very fast.  It reminds me of the Australian footie forum which was invaded by a certain solicitor and his following; the forum admin got so fed up with it they closed the thread, and banned the perpetrators.

    Everyone has the right to his or her opinion, but nobody has the right to belittle or threaten those who are of a different way of thinking.  I choose to make up my own mind on all things, and I object most strongly to people trying to browbeat me into what they see as 'the truth'. Someone called these fantasists 'armchair detectives', I think Sherlock Holmes must be turning in his mythical grave at the mad theories that have been put forward over the past 6 years.  None of us knows what happened on that night, so making up lurid fantasies do not help, they hinder any attempts to get at the truth; in the end Joe Public gets fed up with the bickering and goes elsewhere.  I do hope the Justice forum survives, it has some excellent posters and subjects on there, but we have seen this kind of thing before and no good came out of it.

    http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php
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    Re: SYKES' TAKE ON - JUSTICE

    Post  Sykes on Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:32 am

    Remember my quotes in the first post?  
    UK Justice forum is a good one, well moderated (on the whole) but it is going downhill very fast.
    I do hope the Justice forum survives, it has some excellent posters and subjects on there, but we have seen this kind of thing before and no good came out of it.
    Well, it looks like the Justice forum is going the way of all the others.  Two well-respected posters have canceled their memberships in disgust at the biased attitude of the admin and mods.  Now it seems that if you voice an opinion that is at variance with what are called anti-McCanns, or as they call themselves 'sceptics' your posts are immediately removed.  This, however, doesn't happen to the antis, whose vitriol and insulting remarks are retained.   A poster recently pointed out that two of the most rabid antis had in fact lied outright over accusations that one of them defaced Madeleine posters in PdL and the other than he had never posted on a particular forum.  There is concrete proof in the form of screenshots in the case of the first  and the second shot himself in the foot by correcting a poster, something he would not have been able to do if he hadn't been on that forum.  When the proof was posted up that they had done these things it was immediately removed by admin with the lame excuse that posters should not put up names of people on other forums or in fact the name of any forum.    With all this bias being so evident, I can see more posters leaving and the whole sorry spectacle becoming another cesspit for the antis to post their vitriol on.
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    Re: SYKES' TAKE ON - JUSTICE

    Post  Sykes on Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:56 am

    Last night the rot continued, with the usual insults being thrown. It is all very one-sided; the main snider is usually drunk as a skunk when she posts, nothing new there as she was the same on all the forums she has been banned from. It seems that yet another good poster has decided to call it a day after being railed at non-stop. The drunk is so puerile; she was banned, in fact she wasn't even considered for membership, from another forum so she uses this as an insult, which is desperately childish and even, may I say, verging on moronic. I assume the drunk is an adult, though sometimes one wonders as her hissy fits are more like those of a preteen rolling on the floor and screeching at all and sundry. As I have said before, a shame, but one must lay blame for this on the admin and mods who do not seem to have any control over her. Mind you, it is good for a tired laugh before retiring to the comfort of one's bed, and for reading what has been said on there the next morning while imbibing one's first coffee/tea of the day.
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    Re: SYKES' TAKE ON - JUSTICE

    Post  Sykes on Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:14 am

    Last night the drunken sot managed to top anything its has posted before - this time a non stop rant at another poster. This included such gems as
    sad s****

    Saddie u are an evil cow .......................... nasty nasty dna here, but it takes one to know one LOL, and probably runs in the family, ...................... .............. makes you worse than the teenager in the exorcist evil to the extreme, lol bye now, go plant some petunias, they are good therapy and u need tonnes

    just thought i would fart last at YOU, before i go,as you deserve it, see u luv, keep dreaming, stop wumming and lying and try to be a better and more honest person, theres a good girl, see ya

    Next time do NOT DISRESPECT the dead dear s**** and also RESPECT the dead, that includes Madeleine Mccann, then YOU may be left off the hook

    In the meantime you should just STFU ........... saddie
    In case you are wondering what this is all about, it seems the target posted up something the forum lush took a dislike to and in a drunken rage let rip. This does not show the Justice forum in a good light, in fact it belittles all the good work and the good posters on there. The lush is unable to debate or discuss anything without falling into a drunken rage and then spouting off. Makes you wonder if she can actually speak coherently or whether her everyday conversation is littered with four letter words, doesn't it? I believe resorting to swearing and insults merely reinforce the fact that the lush is a ill-educated chav.
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    Re: SYKES' TAKE ON - JUSTICE

    Post  Sykes on Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:46 am

    Justice is definitely looking the other way these days.  Gerry McCann announced he was going take part in a triathlon to raise more funds for the Missing Children charity.  This, of course brought the haters out from the woodwork with the usual threats of violence.  On the so-called 'Justice' forum there is a thread titled Gerry McCann is doing the Virgin London Triathlon to raise money for the Missing Persons Charity.  which is being trolled mainly by 'faithlilly', (Jacqueline Cowan and The Plebian on Twitter), 'Stephen25000' (aka Stephen Hancock on Amazon forums), 'AnneGuedes' and the new bitch (I am assuming it is a she) on the block, 'Albertini'.   I do not understand why this statement from Mr McCann engenders such hatred and bile.   I am at a total loss to understand what makes these creatures want to denigrate anything the McCanns do or say.   It appears that some antis sit up 24/7 watching and re-watching the various interviews etc of the McCanns, Clarence Mitchell, the police, the PM, Old Uncle Tom Cobbley and all, just to state categorically on a website or blog that, as Gerry's not wearing his wedding ring, his marriage is on the rocks; comment on Kate's makeup, skinniness, aged looks and the most ridiculous ones of all based on 'body language', such as "Gerry pulled his ear 3 times so we know he is guilty" and the 'hand on thigh' one which conclusively proves that he pulls the strings and they are both guilty of a dreadful crime.  

    For anyone wanting to read the above comments referred to, here is the link.  If you are not a member here, remove the xxxx in front of the link before pasting it into your browser.
    xxxxhttp://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1950.0


    Last edited by Sykes on Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:26 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : additional information from a reliable source re who is who)
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    Re: SYKES' TAKE ON - JUSTICE

    Post  Sykes on Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:09 pm

    With regards to a query re post no 4 above, I personally edited out some of the filth emu had posted.  What I posted up said it all really.   Sykes
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    Re: SYKES' TAKE ON - JUSTICE

    Post  Sykes on Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:54 pm

    Justice forum is fast becoming the target of laughter, especially when the lush emu/redblossom posts up comments like this:
    Of course they did and do, and this is just another example of them using an incident to trying to make out ALL people who dont swallow the official story are x y z you know the drill

    dont let the resident wum woop woop granada wum you, the wum who posts about mr amarals skid pants on here, tells u everything u need to know about the intelligence, or not, and crudity about some on here lol whilst professing a moral high ground
    Personally I do not understand why emu and her little friends are treated like royalty on Justice, allowed to post their nasty lies and being rewarded by upgrading - emu is a Hero Member! Those she attacks with her drunklen insults are jumped on the moment they post up anything disliked by the numpties who then bombard the ineffectual admin with complaints and the 'offending' posts are removed. However, most of the antis' posts are retained, or are up for quite some time - don't you just love screenshots?
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    Re: SYKES' TAKE ON - JUSTICE

    Post  Sykes on Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:28 am

    Last night's little offering.  The site is being trolled to death.  At least two members have walked away in disgust and others are no longer bothering to post or even read.  The best thing for Justice would be to take a leaf out of the BigFootie forum's book and close the Madeleine McCann section down altogether.  What is happening is a shame, the forum is a good one but, as has happened in the past, the admin and mods seem unable to step back and see what is happening.
    gilet
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    Re: Gerry McCann is doing the Virgin London Triathlon to raise money for the Missing Persons Charity
    « Reply #161 on: Today at 12:16:12 AM »
    From Forum RULES.

    You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate,...

    Spam, flooding, advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are also forbidden on this forum
    stephen25000 is breaking both these rules by spamming the forum with a lie that the McCanns are solely responsible for the disappearance of their daughter. He cannot back up this claim with proof.

    His petty sniping along with that of Faithlilly is despicable. The reality is that through the efforts of Kate and Gerry McCann this charity is almost £30,000 better off.

    When stephen25000 or faithlilly can demonstrate their personal efforts have assisted any charity to that extent then and only then will their sniping nastiness be worth reading.

    And as an aside for me to be on 50% warning while Redblossom is on 10% makes a mockery of the system. And if that comment gets me banned then that will simply prove my point.


    Last edited by Sykes on Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: SYKES' TAKE ON - JUSTICE

    Post  Sykes on Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:09 pm

    Gilet, to Stephen25000:

    I am quite amused by your posts.

    They say the most inane things.

    From someone who has posted at least a couple of hundred times your mantra about neglect you have the affrontery to accuse me of obsession.

    Do you not realise how stupid that makes you appear to unblinkered readers?

    And then you immediately follow your statement that you don't want to hear excuses and follow it by a request for some kind of excuses as to why so few people sponsored Gerry.

    Not sure if you want the answer or not as your post is so confused but I would suggest that the penny-pinching we all are doing at the moment is partly to blame and more importantly the same kind of person who donated to Kate for the same cause would probably have felt they had already done their bit.

    There is no obsession from me.

    There is a genuine desire for justice and truth and unlike you I know that will not be found with a record stuck on the same repetitive track. When you manage to get beyond your spiteful mantra about neglect then perhaps your contributions will be worthwhile. Till then they are simply spam.

    Well done Gerry McCann and all those other triathletes today and yesterday who raised so much money for so many worthwhile causes and showed that they had the grit and determination to achieve something good.

    And shame on those who are on this and other forums simply to post spiteful comments about those achievements.
    As his posts on Justice get stupider and stupider he has now taken to posting up on Justice his own boring sludge copied over from Amazon.  I wonder, reading his more than somewhat moronic comments, whether he is actually a neglected child or maybe a 'latchkey child', and is taking out on the McCanns all the bile and hatred he has for his parents, as that is how all his puerile, 'stamp my feet and scream' posts come over.  I must admit to liking the name he has been given by another poster - Stuck Record Stevie, totally apt.  lol! lol! 
    xxxxhttp://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1950.225
    gilet on Today at 05:49:07 PM
    I sometimes wonder what the people posting such nasty snide comments, about the way in which Kate and Gerry have achieved real results in the Marathon and today, the Triathlon and who have raised so much money for a very worthwhile charity, believe people think of their posts.

    Do they think that they are thought of as normal? Do they not understand that most people can see that the coordinated rounding up of posters to post their spite on anything which allows them to do so, be it a blog or an online newspaper is both nasty and organised?

    Do they not realise how the hateful comments and the snide remarks reflect badly on the poster not on the target?

    Do they not realise that the people reading the comments are largely shocked by the nature of them rather than the content and that they are reading about someone who has achieved something worthwhile being abused online?

    Do they not realise that there immature attempts at humour show them up as little more than children in adult bodies?

    Somehow I think the blinkers they wear make it very difficult for them to understand the real world.
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    Re: SYKES' TAKE ON - JUSTICE

    Post  Sykes on Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:01 pm

    Another poster has had enough.
    Rachel Granada
    Sr. Member

    Re: Gerry McCann is doing the Virgin London Triathlon to raise money for the Missing Persons Charity

    I'm bowing out of this thread, where spite and bile have been spewed against someone trying to raise money for charity.

    I will just post this from my personal experience. Our family have been supported this year by more than one charity who rely largely on fundraising. We were extremely grateful to those charities, and by extension the wonderful people who had done sponsored runs, baked cakes, had their heads shaved and many other things.

    I am sure that people who will be helped by the funds raised by Kate and Gerry McCann will be as grateful as our family is for the great British fundraiser.

    Well done, Gerry.
    xxxxhttp://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?reportsent;topic=1950.msg64481#msg64481


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    Re: SYKES' TAKE ON - JUSTICE

    Post  Sykes on Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:31 pm

    Another voice of reason - but I very much doubt that his wise words will be heeded.

    Redblossom on Today at 06:24:20 PM
    Get over yourself
    Missing peoples charities accounts, err transparent ones by the way, show 75 per cent goes on salaries
    hello?? Its them showing it not me LOL
    So your MANTRA of no evidence no evidence  is exactly  that a stupid false mantra
    try chamomile tea for your hernia

    Jean-Pierre on Today at 06:56:52 PM
    Redblossom, if you bothered to spend 5 minutes of your valuable time in actually looking at the "Missing People" charity, and you actually understood what they are doing, you would not make asinine comments like that. What on earth do you think "Missing People" does, as a charity?

    They had a total income us just over £1.9m last year.

    They had 46 full time employees. I involved in governance, 7 in fundraising, and 38 in the core charitable activities.

    They took 75000 calls for help, reconnected 1051 children and adults with their families, and helped 742 disadvantaged families. they supported 17000 families where someone had gone missing, to consider thei options. They provide a missing person helpline, and information sheets.

    The trustees are not paid, and one individual received pay of between £70,000 and £80,000 last year. They received 35000 calls from missing children.

    It is therefore a very labour intensive charity, with employees and volunteers spending much of their time onthe telephone, or in other contact activities.

    So why is it surprising that they spend 75% of their income of salaries to pay people to do the work....

    It is very sad to see that you and others here are so utterly blinded by hate that you can't be bothered to think before posting.
    Comment frtom a poster on another forum, with thanks.
    The spite, bile and venom from fakelily and co that has been permitted on that site today is a disgrace.

    I suggest Admin take the word 'Justice' out of its name - they've let themselves be turned into nothing more than another squalid hate site.
    And here is the lush, plastered as usual - this post has actually gone so someone must have reported it.  A you can see her only recourse to anything she doesn't agree with is to swear and insult.
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    Re: SYKES' TAKE ON - JUSTICE

    Post  Sykes on Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:10 pm

    Emu the lushmanky is off again:

    Offline Redblossom
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    Re: Can anybody enlighten me as to what has been achieved here?
    « Reply #30 on: Today at 08:17:06 PM »

    Quote from: Jazzy on Today at 08:08:46 PM
    Not so long ago, red, you admitted you were posting drunk.

    Sod off Jazzy

    I mayhave said I had had a few drinks when posting at some stage, so what? Did you ever pick your nose or scratch your ar.. or have sex whilst posting End of the day its what is IN a post and not the poster so b....r off wont you

    Your are free to rebut posts but NOT FREE to say any post is plain wrong by virtue of itsposter, thats sad, wrong, two faced and hypodritical
    Yep she's well arsed - 'hypodritical' lol!
    And some more, this time over a poster she has wrongly identified- a normal anti practice.
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    Re: Gerry McCann is doing the Virgin London Triathlon to raise money for the Missing Persons Charity
    « Reply #299 on: Today at 08:32:27 PM »

    Quote from: Faithlilly on Today at 08:24:22 PM
    Isn't Jayelles the poster who's behind a sustained campaign to discredit and humiliate an author who has written about her childhood sexual abuse ?

    And she preaches morals to us !

    I think this libellous post needs to be deleted asap, mods.

    Emu/Redblossom:
    Yup thats her, sad specimen of humanity isnt she, all to buoy up the mccanns

    Faithlilly:
    If gilet is indeed Jayelles then that is exactly what she has done and the victim herself has the screenshots to prove it . So no libel here I'm afraid
    I knew it would happen, sooner or later emu would call someone a  'plank'.  She is so bl**dy predictable.


    Re: Gerry McCann is doing the Virgin London Triathlon to raise money for the Mis
    « Reply #314 on: Today at 09:05:57 PM »
    Quote from: Jazzy on Today at 09:01:56 PM
    Oh good! Are we "outing" now? Fab! A few posters here would love to see their swansong posts banning them from other forums posted.

    Redblossom
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    Watched
    Pointless plank
    Quote from: Rachel Granada on Today at 09:05:39 PM
    Where are the mods?  This thread is a disgrace.
    DCI:
    Its like being on Haverns and Amazon. Shame the mods can't see whats going on.
    Another decent site down the pan
     Redblossom/emu   LOL, all her posts are full of spite and venom, u must be living in lalaland jazzy, oh well, enjoy your ignorance pet, sigh, another brainwashed victim, zzz

    Oh ps jazzy all u have to do is searchall my posts and search all hers and see which of us discusses the case and which one just posts to deride people, its less basic than gcse requirements
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    Re: SYKES' TAKE ON - JUSTICE

    Post  Sykes on Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:56 am

    After some time, I thought an update on the state of play on the Justice forum's McCann section was in order, and it is a bad mid-term report.  It has now become a total anti-McCann war zone, with quite a few 'new' posters, for example, C.Edwards and Colonel Fabian, both rabid anti-McCanns and other assorted nasties joining - since the Amaral trial started, they are coming out the woowwork like termites, which makes  the whole place an offshoot of the many hater sites.  I have come to the conclusion that John and his band of mods are only interested in bulking up the member numbers as any semblance of impartiality seems to have gone right out the window.  The Aussie footie site nipped this in the bud before it really got going, but then they were ready for this kind of thing, whereas Justice seems impervious to how far they are down the drain, which is not surprising when you see the memberlist, and note such creatures as Emu, (sorry, Redblossom), faithlily, stalker supreme, luz, destroyer of posters, carlymichelle, Stephen 25000 and assorted other sick individuals posting up their stinking garbage each and every day.  But what goes around, comes around; I wonder what they will do if/when Amaral loses?


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    FROM BAD TO BEYOND WORSE

    Post  Sykes on Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:00 pm

    Since Monday and the Crimewatch program, Miscarriage of Justice forum has really plumbed the depths. Anyone who dares in any way, shape or form to disagree however mildly, with the Party Line is slammed with penalties and often banned. Many more good posters have walked away in disgust, the latest leaving a very succint comment re exactly what she\he thought of the posters and admin. Meanwhile the Forum Pets are allowed to post up links to other forums, despite there being a 'ban' on this practice. I understand the forum is now under observation alongside the rabid hater forums and blogs - with some interest also being shown in other posts and subjects on there. One would have thought that John, who bleats about his innocence re a fraud conviction and jail sentence, would realise that he is being taken for a ride by a bunch of lying hooligans. But no, all he and his asinine mods seem to be interested in is the number of readers/hits they get on the forum. Well, in the long run he may regret his actions; what is it they say, 'once a con, always a con'.


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    WHAT A SHAMBLES

    Post  Sykes on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:10 pm

    Last weekend the Justice forum descended into madness.   A new member, calling itself new person, spammed the threads on page one of the Madeleine section with a long treatise on the poster named John.   Each time anyone posted on these threads new person posted up the same thing.  This went on for about 3 hours, I understand; there were no mods on at all so the poster had a field day.  Then came the really funny hour as various posters tried to 'out' new person.   First suggestion was that it was someone from Stop the Myths.  Then an identity was settled on - it was Kevin (Craigie), like John, a convicted felon.   Next day new person had been banned and the 'offending' posts deleted.   However, the paranoia didn't die down; a new poster who joined to discuss the Jeremy Bamber case was subjected immediately to the accusation that she was a troll from what is referred to as 'the blue forum'.   Things seem to have calmed down a bit now, but I wonder if new person will appear in another disguise.    What I found quite interesting is the snippet of information that dropped into my in box - a certain poster on Justice, besides her many other names, also used newperson as an ID on another forum.
    ETA. I see the poster who joined yesterday and was accused of being a troll has left and moved over to the 'blue forum' - I sincerely hope she gets a more friendly reception there.


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    UPDATE - WUM ALERT

    Post  Sykes on Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:04 am

    Things really do happen on the Justice forum, don't they, usually at the weekends and when some of the rabid posters have had a skinfull.  The latest, yesterday evening, was the appearance of someone calling itself Peter Verran, supposedly a 'person of interest' to the police re the MCann case.  Most posters, whatever side they might be on, were highly skeptical.  However, the resident lush immediately tried to blame what she called a WUM on the pro side.  Mind you, she did appear to have over-indulged - as per usual.   It was so obviously a scam, especially when the person went off-line the moment they were asked a question and, as far as I am aware never came back on.  One post and then a sudden silence?  I leave you to make your own decision as to the veracity of this poster - it has been suggested in some quarters that one would need to look very close to home for the culprit, that it was a blatant attempt to increase the falling numbers of posters and readers.  Oh, an afterthought, why did redblossom immediately say it was a WUM?   We are entitled, nay, we demand to know what she knows.

    Further information :  oh, my, the thread has 'vanished' though the poster is still on the membership list.   No need to comment, is there?

    An update on all this: Later on, back came 'Peter Verran' on a new thread posting up in capitals and asking if he should consider legal action - I assume against the police, though I understand he went to them voluntarily. One deluded idiot suggested he contact Tony Bennett (yes, that one, not the singer) - can one report a poster for suggesting assisted suicide? And guess what, that thread and all posts has vanished, but you can read some of it on our Justice thread if you are so inclined. Meanwhile the Justice lot were crowing over the sudden suspension of a rival forum which they call the 'Blue Forum' and which is orientated towards the Jeremy Bamber case but has a section on the McCanns. I don't know what happened but it is back on line again. There is no love lost between these two forums; in fact some of the vitriol has outdone even the lot regularly thrown at the McCann supporters. An interesting fact - I understand that, like the Justice forum, its rival is run by a convicted criminal.


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    NO WAY TO RUN A FORUM, SHADES OF 3As

    Post  Sykes on Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:56 am

    Last night we had quite a session, apparently unmodded, nothing new there.  A rabid hater decided to threaten to 'out' another, claiming they had exchanged PMs and that the poster was lying regarding this.   The anti then offered to send copies of all the pms to anyone who requested them and thanked other posters for their support.    She screamed LIAR on her post - surely that is enough to get a severe reprimand?   And on any other well-run and modded forum, threatening poisters with putting up in public PMs, or to give them their full title, PRIVATE MESSAGES, would result in an immediate ban, likewise sending them round to other posters to gloat over is totally reprehensible.   Then the usual suspects joined in, giving their tuppence worth - as if anyone cares what they think.   Meanwhile, that well known fool, AnneGuedes, was claiming that pork is NOT pig and droning on about 24 hour burials in Portugal.  She's obviously as ignorant over this as she is over Portuguese law and court procedures.   In Christian countries, the burial practices of both Jews and Muslims are honored ie the burial within 24 hours of death.   But in the case of murder or suspicious demise, these practices can be and are revoked.   Again this 'pundit' has ended up with egg on her face, you would think by now she would have learned to shut her trap and go do something constructive instead of making a total ass of herself at every opportunity.   This morning, surprise, surprise, the posts had been removed, and guess what, the poster who did the threatening is on 10% watch, while her victim is on 30% .  No justice on that forum, I would describe it as rotten to the core.  But then, when you consider the admin and owner, are you really surprised?


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